Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 27 March 2023, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Johnson of Lainston. The answering members were Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, Lord Coaker and Baroness Blake of Leeds.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lords committee stage first day. Clause 1, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2 disagreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. Clause 4 disagreed to. New clause agreed to. Clause 5 agreed to. Clauses 6 and 7, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 8 to 35 agreed to. Clause 36 disagreed to. New clauses agreed to. Clause 37 agreed to. Clause 38 disagreed to. New clause agreed to. Clause 39 agreed to. Clause 40, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 41 to 45 agreed to. Clause 46 disagreed to. New clause agreed to. Clause 47 disagreed to. Clause 48 agreed to. Clause 49, as amended, agreed to. Clause 50 agreed to. Schedule 1 agreed to. Clause 51, as amended, agreed to. Clause 52 agreed to. Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to. Clause 53 agreed to.

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 829 cc1-56GC
Session: 2022-23
Department: Department for Business and Trade
Legislative stage: Committee stage
Procedure: New clauses
Chamber / Committee: House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items: Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill 2022-23. Brought from the Commons.
Monday, 30 January 2023
Bills
House of Lords; Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill; Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill; Energy Bill: Government Response; Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill; Carer's Leave Bill; Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill. Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twenty-seventh report.
Wednesday, 1 March 2023
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords; Deposited Paper DEP2023-0331
Wednesday, 12 April 2023
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c1GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
1: Clause 1, page 2, line 2, leave out from “that” ...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc1-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I draw the Committee’s attention to my interests as set out in the register, including ...; Lord Geddes | 829 c2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before opening this debate, I advise the Grand Committee that, if Amendment 1 is agreed...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 829 cc2-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I again welcome this Bill, as I set out at Second Reading. My noble friend is right: it...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 cc4-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 63 to Clause 90. I refer to my interests as set out in the regi...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 cc5-6GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, for his introduction today, and I acknowledge the...; Lord Coaker | 829 cc6-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister and his colleagues for their approach to the Bill and ...; Lord Browne of Ladyton | 829 c8GC (Link to this contribution)
I had not intended to speak on this group, but my noble friend Lord Coaker has drawn my attention...; Lord Macpherson of Earl's Court | 829 c8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew. I declare my interes...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc8-10GC (Link to this contribution)
I really thank noble Lords for their contributions. Not for the first time in this House I am sur...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c10GC (Link to this contribution)
I just interrupt the Minister before he goes much further. I have been listening very carefully t...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc10-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate that intervention. Our view is that if we legislate specifically for a risk-based ap...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c11GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if my noble friend wants my amendment not to be moved, would it be possible for the reg...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c11GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for that comment, and I entirely agree that it would be extremely useful ...; Lord Coaker | 829 c11GC (Link to this contribution)
I would be grateful for a clarification. Can the Minister say something about the language being ...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c12GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I do not want noble Lords at any point to think that I a...; Lord Garnier | 829 cc12-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to prolong this debate because, although it is fascinating, it is something that ca...; Lord Faulks | 829 c13GC (Link to this contribution)
So that the Minister does not have to answer questions seriatim, as it were, I endorse that. I am...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c13GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate my noble friend’s comments. I do not believe that I suggested at any point that this...; Lord Browne of Ladyton | 829 cc13-4GC (Link to this contribution)
On a plain reading of this clause, the registrar is being required to promote these objectives, b...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c14GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the noble Lord’s comment. We have discussed this at some length. I am personally ver...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c14GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
3: Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert—
...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 c14GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
5: Clause 2, page 2, line 15, at end insert—
<...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 cc14-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is a wide-ranging group of amendments which focuses mostly on the amount of inform...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc15-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for accommodating this intervention. I thought it would aid noble...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 cc17-20GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 7, 8, 32 and 33 in my name. Before I start, I hope the Comm...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 829 c20GC (Link to this contribution)
As a fellow chartered accountant, can I ask the noble Lord how his amendment would work in respec...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c20GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is quite right. What we are really trying to get to here is the ultimate beneficia...; Lord Faulks | 829 c20GC (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord think this goes far enough? I chaired the Joint Committee on the Draft Regist...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c20GC (Link to this contribution)
I made exactly the same argument during the passage of what we used to call ECB 1—the first econo...; Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 829 cc20-1GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am here as an international policy wonk, and I am very conscious that, in economic cr...; Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 829 c21GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for not being able to be present at Second Reading. In support of the noble...; Lord Cromwell | 829 c21GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if we achieve nothing else today, it will be getting the name of the noble Lord, Lord V...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c21GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to my amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has done a lot of the heavy li...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 cc21-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think I need to say very little given the barrage we have heard. These Benches firmly...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for their amendments. The Government appreciate their intent but consider tha...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c22GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is quite right: there is the question of being able to influence or control the co...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc23-4GC (Link to this contribution)
That is exactly the sort of question that should be asked; I look forward to returning to this Co...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c24GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has explained the onerous nature of verifying the identity of every shareholder, w...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c24GC (Link to this contribution)
The company is obliged to register if there is a person with significant control or someone with ...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c24GC (Link to this contribution)
But that is different from any shareholder having to make the positive statement: “I am”—or “I am...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc24-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the noble Lord’s intervention. I expect some of this comes down to nominee companies...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 c25GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this relatively short but important debate. ...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc26-7GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
6: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c27GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
9: Clause 6, page 4, line 8, after second “permissi...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc27-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I begin by apologising for my lack of fluidity in the procedures of Committee stage—I h...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c28GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to my amendment on designated persons. The Minister is already dealing wi...; Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 829 c28GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I note that these various amendments cover England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ire...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c29GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate the noble Lord’s comment about the Crown dependencies. I am happy to confirm that th...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c30GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
10: Clause 6, page 4, line 9, at end insert—
...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c30GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
11: Clause 7, page 4, line 26, at end insert “, and...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 c31GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Blake of Leeds
13: Clause 14, page 8, line 8, after “days” insert “...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 c31GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 13 is tabled in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Coaker and Lord Po...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc31-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I greatly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for speaking in this debate and for tabling Amend...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 c32GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister. I was indeed referring to all the amendments in the group. I note his offer...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 c33GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Baroness Blake of Leeds
23: Clause 29, page 17, line 32, at end insert—
<...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 cc33-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 23 is tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Coaker, which my noble frien...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 829 c34GC (Link to this contribution)
I take up the noble Baroness’s invitation to comment on this amendment, although I have just rece...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c34GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have two very short points on this. First, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 829 c35GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Companies Act says at Section 9(5) that an application
“must contain a statem...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c35GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have very little to add to what my noble friend said. This is clearly a bit of a cura...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc35-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Leigh, the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, and the noble ...; Lord Faulks | 829 c36GC (Link to this contribution)
Personally, I am convinced by what the Minister has said about the substitute for Section 86. I j...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c36GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate that comment. I will come back to the noble Lord with more detail, if that is possib...; Baroness Blake of Leeds | 829 c36GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords for their comments, and I thank the Minister for his explanation. We will of ...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc37-8GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
25: After Clause 36, insert the following new Claus...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc38-40GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
27: After Clause 38, insert the following new Claus...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc40-1GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
28: Clause 40, page 27, line 5, column 2, after “co...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc41-4GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
31: After Clause 46, insert the following new Claus...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c45GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
34: Clause 49, page 33, leave out lines 19 to 33 an...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c45GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
36: Clause 51, page 35, line 16, leave out “section...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c46GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Agnew of Oulton
39: After Clause 51, insert the following new Clause—; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c46GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment builds on my opening comments in relation to Amendment 44 and goes to th...; Lord Leigh of Hurley | 829 c47GC (Link to this contribution)
When my noble friend the Minister replies to this debate, I wonder whether he would consider acce...; Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted | 829 c47GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support these amendments. I have listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, has sai...; Lord Faulks | 829 c47GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not wholly convinced that what you would be required to do under this amendment is very oner...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c48GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, very quickly, I will not repeat what we said on an earlier group, but these two amendme...; Lord Cromwell | 829 c48GC (Link to this contribution)
I declare that I am a shareholder in an SME. We need to be aware that there are various classes o...; Lord Trevethin and Oaksey | 829 c48GC (Link to this contribution)
I was going to make a similar point. Obviously, there are a number of different classes of shares...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c48GC (Link to this contribution)
Noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Bowles, have usefully teased out some of the principl...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 c49GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said. When the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, ...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c49GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for that summation. I am very grateful to noble Lords for ...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 cc49-50GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his offer to have an ongoing conversation about this, because that is ho...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c50GC (Link to this contribution)
I appreciate my noble friend’s summation. Again, I hope that the Government have demonstrated tod...; Lord Agnew of Oulton | 829 c50GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c50GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
40: Schedule 2, page 177, line 26, at end insert—; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 cc50-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Moved by
Lord Johnson of Lainston
42: After Clause 53, insert the following new Claus...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c52GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise if I have not followed the procedure correctly, but I am grateful to our De...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 829 c53GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not really understand this provision. The purpose is to create a basic offence of ...; Lord Faulks | 829 c53GC (Link to this contribution)
Further to what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has said, the use of the phrase “false statements” r...; Lord Trevethin and Oaksey | 829 c53GC (Link to this contribution)
I agree with what the noble Lords say. It occurs to me that the intention of calling this a stric...; Lord Thomas of Gresford | 829 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, to add to the point that has been made, if the burden of proof is going to be changed s...; Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted | 829 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
I am struggling, as are others, with the wording in subsection (2) about
“every officer of ...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, all this is well above my legal pay grade, but the Minister has no doubt heard all the ...; Lord Browne of Ladyton | 829 c54GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am fully in favour of this matter being taken away and simplified, if it can be. I ju...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 cc54-5GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been an interesting debate—and a very lawyer-heavy debate —on the juxtaposition of “stri...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c55GC (Link to this contribution)
I greatly appreciate the input from noble Lords. Knowing my record over the last hour, I will pro...; Lord Vaux of Harrowden | 829 c55GC (Link to this contribution)
Unfortunately, I do not think that is a “reasonable excuse”; that would not be a “material partic...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c55GC (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted that the noble Lord pointed that out; that is certainly true. I think noble Lords ...; Lord Faulks | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not get the impression that the Committee is against the idea; there is simply a lack of cla...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the procedure in Grand Committee is quite clear: there has to be unanimity for an amend...; Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
We are not against the Minister’s amendment; we just think it needs clarity. The Labour Party wou...; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
The appropriate procedure would be for the Minister to withdraw it, and then move an amendment on...; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
At this stage, I believe it would be appropriate to consider further the amendment.; Lord Clement-Jones | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
May I just clarify for the Minister that it would be very unfortunate if he pressed his amendment...; Baroness Garden of Frognal | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I advise that, if the amendment is voted against, it is negatived.; Lord Johnson of Lainston | 829 c56GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to noble Lords for their input. I hope they felt, over the last...
Notes: Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland legislative consent sought.
Subjects: Disclosure of information Companies Directors Fraud Disqualification Misconduct Ownership Powers Registration Reform Shareholders Sanctions Companies House
Legislation: Companies Act 2006; Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill 2022-23
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on hansard.parliament.uk

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Secondary information

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