Parliamentary Search

Opposition day on Wednesday, 4 June 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Nigel Waterson. The answering member was Mike O'Brien.

Pensioner Poverty

Pensioner Poverty. Thirteenth opposition day debate (part 2). Motion negatived on division (284 votes to 213). Amendment agreed to on division (279 votes to 209).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
476 c832-89 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 476 c832 (Link to this contribution) I should report to the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Mi...
Lord Redwood | 476 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) Has my hon. Friend noticed how the Government are very much at fault? They impose taxes, especially ...
Show all contributions (171)
Baroness Browning | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) Only a week ago, I was canvassing with my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We can all tell similar stories of canvassing in Crewe and Nantwich...
Bob Spink | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Nigel Waterson | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) According to recent EU statistics, only pensioners—
Bob Spink | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Nigel Waterson | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make some progress. Let us look at the figures that we do have. Even according to the...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c834 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that we have colleagues on both sides of the House who can give us a long-term view o...
Lord Deben | 476 c835 (Link to this contribution) Is it not also true that in rural areas the Government have taken away the money that used to come t...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c835-6 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is growing evidence of a huge transfer of resources ...
Brooks Newmark | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that many elderly people find the problem with means-testing is that the for...
Albert Owen | 476 c835 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Angela Browning) was talking about quality of life issues....
Nigel Waterson | 476 c835 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get too diverted, but in Eastbourne the Chancellor's largesse has landed council ta...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c832 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman makes any more points about things being suppressed, he should know that t...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c832 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House deplores the fact that, even on the Government's own figures, there a...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, let us wait and see what the figures tell us. If there was any political reason to h...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) Well, it takes someone from Leeds grammar school to teach me something.
Nigel Waterson | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find that it was Disraeli: I looked it up this morning.
David Winnick | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned—perhaps he will do so—the winter fuel payment. In 1996, the las...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) As a fellow alumnus, I always bow to the right hon. Gentleman. He might well have been there when Di...
Peter Tapsell | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may go back a little further and remind my hon. Friend that it was a Conservative Governme...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c833 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to the issue of fuel poverty and I will be happy to take another intervention, but in...
Speaker | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) I just remind hon. Members of what was said earlier: it depends on whether or not the Member who has...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady cannot say that she is not going to allow i...
Mike Penning | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott) cite...
Jenny Willott | 476 c856 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a relatively new Member of the House, I find it difficult tryi...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c858 (Link to this contribution) I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Jenny Willott). Although she...
Jenny Willott | 476 c856-7 (Link to this contribution) Not for the moment. The Liberal Democrats would restore the earnings link immediately, so that pensi...
Speaker | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) Order. Is the hon. Lady giving way?
John Penrose | 476 c861 (Link to this contribution) On the point about pension credit, does the right hon. Gentleman encounter the same problem as I do ...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c859-61 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman accurately expects a Labour Government to be in office in 2015, as...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c859 (Link to this contribution) As always, I am listening closely to what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. If it was so outrageou...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c859 (Link to this contribution) As always, what my hon. Friend says is accurate. The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central and others re...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c861-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is probably right, and I agree that complicated forms are awkward not only for pe...
Anne Begg | 476 c859 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that whenever a politician says that we should not bring party polit...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c858-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a very charming Member and I take his intervention seriously. He refers to my ...
Graham Stuart | 476 c858 (Link to this contribution) Someone who has been in this House as long as the right hon. Gentleman and who is as highly regarded...
Jenny Willott | 476 c853 (Link to this contribution) I was making a specific point about the basic state pension because, as the hon. Lady points out, th...
Anne Begg | 476 c853 (Link to this contribution) It was remiss of me not to congratulate the hon. Lady, my ex-Select Committee colleague, on her prom...
Jenny Willott | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution to the debate. I would like to turn to the issue of ...
Mike Penning | 476 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady raises an important point. Traditionally, we have relied on private provision, but she...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c852 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady goes and checks the record—I say this gently to her—she will find that there was a ...
Jenny Willott | 476 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) Indeed; that is a valid point. Perhaps it is because the initial estimate was that 1.4 million peopl...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c852 (Link to this contribution) I join the Minister in welcoming the hon. Lady to her new position. Does she agree that none of this...
Brian Jenkins | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) To put the record straight, the lack of confidence in private pensions came about solely because of ...
Jenny Willott | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) I would rather not get into the politics of who did what to whom on private pensions, but there are ...
Jenny Willott | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The reason I allowed my hon. Friend to intervene was that he had been trying to get in b...
John Barrett | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for being very generous. On women's pensions, would it not be a good thing fo...
Jenny Willott | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) Apart from one from my colleague.
Jenny Willott | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and on that note I shall refuse all interventions from both sides o...
Speaker | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that it is for the hon. Member with the Floor to decide wh...
Mike Penning | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. If the Minister keeps making interventions after making a...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c854 (Link to this contribution) The way in which the hon. Lady is using these statistics is questionable. She knows very well that, ...
David Leslie Taylor | 476 c873 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether we could consider what is being said, be...
Speaker | 476 c873 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that is for me to decide. I was allowing the hon. Gentleman some leeway in the hope t...
Mike Penning | 476 c873-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was addressing the comments that the Minister made in his opening...
Anne Main | 476 c875 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He and I share the same group of pensioners who have been aff...
Mike Penning | 476 c875 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and pay tribute to the work that she has done on behalf...
Andrew Selous | 476 c875-7 (Link to this contribution) We have had an important debate tonight, which was comprehensively and persuasively introduced by my...
Andrew Selous | 476 c877 (Link to this contribution) The Minister shakes his head, but he should look at the note on the EUROSTAT figures. This Governmen...
Andrew Selous | 476 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not have long left, and I am going to respond to the hon. Members who have spoken in the debate...
James Plaskitt | 476 c880-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not have time. So, if hon. Members want to use EUROSTAT, the most reliable data are those ...
James Plaskitt | 476 c879-80 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate this afternoon with contributions from the hon. Member for Cardiff...
Lord McLoughlin | 476 c881 (Link to this contribution) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put. Question, That the Question be...
Speaker | 476 c881 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Brooks Newmark | 476 c862-3 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker; I assume that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker)...
John Penrose | 476 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the causes of today's short-termism is almost certainly the Go...
Brooks Newmark | 476 c864-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. This is happening across the board throughout all public se...
Geraldine Smith | 476 c865-6 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak today. I intended just to come into the Chamber to hear what the Conserv...
David Winnick | 476 c866 (Link to this contribution) To revert to the winter fuel allowance, when the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), opening ...
Geraldine Smith | 476 c866-7 (Link to this contribution) I think it is a case of flip-flopping around. It will be interesting when the Conservatives have to ...
Geraldine Smith | 476 c866 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. Will he say that the Conservatives will retain the winter fuel a...
Andrew Selous | 476 c866 (Link to this contribution) I can reassure the hon. Lady that we have no plans to scrap the winter fuel allowance.
Geraldine Smith | 476 c866 (Link to this contribution) I am very pleased to hear that. Perhaps we can go through a few of the other measures. Will the Cons...
John Barrett | 476 c867 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Lady's point about the importance of the link. Why does she think it has not been re...
Geraldine Smith | 476 c867-8 (Link to this contribution) The Government have said that they will restore that link and we await an announcement. The Conserva...
Speaker | 476 c867 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows the rules of debate.
Geraldine Smith | 476 c867 (Link to this contribution) People were dying on hospital trolleys. As I have said, the British people are not stupid. When they...
Charles Walker | 476 c867 (Link to this contribution) MRSA. C. difficile. People lying in their own vomit under you.
Mike Penning | 476 c872-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker). We have come to ex...
David Leslie Taylor | 476 c871 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has omitted to mention one way of conveying elderly people to hospital to visit w...
Charles Walker | 476 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point. I think that it is incumbent on primary care trusts and regional health ...
John Penrose | 476 c868-70 (Link to this contribution) I want to pick up on some of the comments that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterso...
Charles Walker | 476 c870-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for calling me to speak towards the tail end of the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. I liste...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c837 (Link to this contribution) No, I was just interested. [Hon. Members: ““Go on!””] The hon. Gentleman's speech is extremely inter...
Bob Spink | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has taken interventions from every singl...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) The prediction is that unless something is done—something is happening, so hopefully this will not o...
Bob Spink | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Angela Watkinson | 476 c837 (Link to this contribution) The complexity of the forms often leads elderly people to seek the help of family or friends in comp...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c837 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that. In fairness, Ministers have attempted to make the process easier, and to bri...
Speaker | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that it is entirely for the Member who has the floor to decide wheth...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c837 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When the Prime Minister was in opposition, he said:"““I want the nex...
Bob Spink | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on means-testing?
Nigel Waterson | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There are other examples of massive unfairness, too. Appro...
Pete Wishart | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman accept that council tax is one of the biggest contributory factors to pensio...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) That is another debate, and one that I would find fascinating. I assume that the hon. Gentleman is n...
Rob Marris | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he wants a fair share for pensioners, and he rightly decries pensioner ...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I will tell the hon. Gentleman, but not today. There are about two years for the Government to ...
Albert Owen | 476 c838 (Link to this contribution) One of the serious issues is that the poorest pensioners are not claiming council tax benefit, and o...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c838-40 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair point. My understanding is that there are moves afoot to tackle the issue. I think I ...
Robert Smith | 476 c840 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about fuel poverty. The Government strategy relied s...
Lord Deben | 476 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) I would not like my hon. Friend's speech to be perforated as a result of his failing to say that poo...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c837 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what the right hon. Gentleman means by ““perforated””. No doubt we will find out. As h...
Geraldine Smith | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) The pension credit has helped pensioners in my constituency, and the targeting of resources has mean...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that at all—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady will allow me, I am saying that that is...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c836 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. Despite the sterling efforts of the Pension Service—I have visite...
John Barrett | 476 c851 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that on the several occasions when the Minister has said that those who ar...
Jenny Willott | 476 c850-1 (Link to this contribution) A Labour Back-Bencher told me yesterday that pensioners had never had it so good. While that may wel...
Anne Begg | 476 c851 (Link to this contribution) How do the Liberal Democrats aim to end pensioner poverty if they are setting their face against tar...
Jenny Willott | 476 c851 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely; that is a valid point, and I thank my hon. Friend for making it. It is not just the tak...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c847 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should perhaps just remind me of the countries that came up.
Mike O'Brien | 476 c848-50 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do want to contest that statistic, because it distorts the poverty data and the EUROSTAT...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c847 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Minister's short-term memory may be failing, but I was quoting the EUROSTAT fi...
Jenny Willott | 476 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that point later, and I shall explain exactly what the Liberal Democrats would do th...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c852 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by welcoming the hon. Lady to her new position? I hope that we will work closely on pens...
Jenny Willott | 476 c852 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will allow me to say so, I think that he has confused two different issues that I ha...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I was trying to be conservative in my use of figures, but he corrects me, q...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman in the hope that we will hear something new.
Nigel Waterson | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) The Minister chastised us for postponing the debate. I remind him that the last time it was fixed, t...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) Look at the record of this Government. This is the Government who have sought to help the poorest pe...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mike O'Brien | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) When judging who cares about them, pensioners will be able to compare the levels of caring, in terms...
Gerald Kaufman | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) has just boasted that this debate was called by the Co...
Pete Wishart | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way on that point?
Mike O'Brien | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I want to make progress. We shall do that through data shari...
Pete Wishart | 476 c845 (Link to this contribution) Is not the Minister ashamed that, under a new Labour Government, 47 per cent. of single pensioners a...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c846 (Link to this contribution) The supply of heating oil is a difficult issue. The Government still believe that open competition b...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c846 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's statistics are not accurate because they exclude, for example, council tax bene...
David Heath | 476 c846 (Link to this contribution) I represent a rural area. It concerns me that many people who are in the most difficulty with their ...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c847 (Link to this contribution) We have been looking into the statistics, and that is the current position. As we have put in place ...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c847 (Link to this contribution) This is an important point and I glad that the Minister has raised it, because he raised it in quest...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I need to make progress. I have been generous in giving way. ...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c840 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is absolutely right. This is not a debate on energy policy,...
David Winnick | 476 c840 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Winnick | 476 c842 (Link to this contribution) During the Tory years, were not the cold weather payments the only help with heating? Furthermore, i...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c842 (Link to this contribution) The point that I was making is that this Government are making payments of £2 billion to pensioners ...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c842 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and pensioners remember that. Let us not forget private pensions either, b...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c841 (Link to this contribution) First, I shall deal with the hon. Gentleman's initial remarks, which were rather churlish if I may s...
David Winnick | 476 c841 (Link to this contribution) I have never previously seen a Front-Bench spokesman persistently refuse to give way. Be that as it ...
Peter Tapsell | 476 c842 (Link to this contribution) The point that I was making was that a previous Labour Government abolished those payments altogethe...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, To leave out from ““House”” to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:"“...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c842-3 (Link to this contribution) Let me just make my point, and then I will happily give way. We had to clean up the private pension...
Mike Penning | 476 c843 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is quite right: I am going to raise the matter of the 700 constituents who had their pe...
Rob Marris | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) I have to correct, indirectly, the figures that my hon. and learned Friend has given. The increase i...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c844 (Link to this contribution) Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that when we came to office in 1997, the amount of money spent by t...
Brooks Newmark | 476 c843-4 (Link to this contribution) First, the Minister threw the name Maxwell at us as if that were going to be the thrust of his argum...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c843 (Link to this contribution) On the reasons why the situation arose, and why his constituents had some difficulties when their pe...
Mike Penning | 476 c843 (Link to this contribution) That sounds like great news for my constituents and the other 140,000 who have been waiting for five...
Mike O'Brien | 476 c843 (Link to this contribution) As it happens, this morning, I signed the order that will ensure that those payments are made. They ...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I shall make a little more progress; I have given way quite a l...
Jenny Willott | 476 c852 (Link to this contribution) I will indeed go and have a look at that.
Speaker | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) I have made the point that there may well be an opportunity for a response to be made. The hon. Lady...
Jenny Willott | 476 c855 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I am not going to give way. I may allow some interventions at the end. [Interruptio...
Nigel Waterson | 476 c835 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Treasury is quietly doing rather well out of the rises...
Subjects
Council tax benefits Council tax Housing benefit Employment Fuel poverty Hospital beds Inflation Pension credit Pensioners Workplace pensions Poverty Pensions Personal pensions Means-tested benefits Prices State retirement pensions Rural areas Take-up Winter fuel payment Cost of living
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk